Classical Music & Opera Forums

pczipott · by **pczipott** on 05 Nov 2008, 23:37

Peter: When did the GOP ever reach out to the Democrats (liberals, moderates)??? ...

Sheila, regarding bipartisanship: (1) Jamie has expressed it well; (2) my sentiment was expressed about Obama's presidency and not past presidencies; (3) I was doing Obama the honor of holding him to a higher standard ... because I think him capable of it and deserving of it.

That comment amounts to a nit I picked with his speech, which I thought was, as a whole, tremendous and moving.

pczipott · by **pczipott** on 05 Nov 2008, 23:43

Meanwhile, even as accolades (I was about to write "hosannas", but decided to circumvent the messianic trappings

) come in from around the globe, Medvedev has wasted no time in putting an "interesting" test in front of the president-to-be. I just knew that Russia would want to test his mettle. Mind you, I think Bush's decision to put those defensive missiles in Poland and their control radar in the Czech Republic was needlessly provocative (in a symbolic way; I think it represents a negligible military threat), but Obama will have the problem of possibly appearing to be weak, should he defuse the situation by canceling the deployment (even if he never supported the initial deployment). And Russia might misread that appearance of weakness, just as Khrushchev misread his first meetings with Kennedy and decided the president would not resist the missile deployment in Cuba. So this will be an interesting situation to watch unfold -- although a distraction from the menu of problems that are fundamentally much more important than missile defense systems deployed in east central Europe.

karlhenning · by **karlhenning** on 06 Nov 2008, 08:13

calvert wrote:
lulu wrote:And it's a thrill to have a president-elect who can actually string a complete sentence together without mangling a word!

Now THAT is a statement with which I would agree wholeheartedly. Bush has shown clearly that an inability to communicate articulately and persuasively can cripple a President's effectiveness. You have to be able to sell your programs (whatever they may be) to the public, and justifying the war in Iraq (to take one notable example) by repeating over and over, like a mantra, "You know, we were attacked!" just won't cut it by the time you get to the 150th repetition. I cringed every time he did one of those robotic interviews. I even saw this when I met him in private in the Oval Office (an incident which I recounted previously). He used the same tired old clichés and went on ad nauseum with his usual stump speech about Iraq. I wanted to shout, "Enough, already!"

Now, this is what I call fair & balanced.

Cheers,
~Karl

kashania · by **kashania** on 06 Nov 2008, 12:10

Thanks for the Mahler clip, Lis. Quite elevating.

calvert · by **calvert** on 06 Nov 2008, 17:59

cliftwood wrote:Jamie..

What a marvelous creation ! I'd love to post it on a few other music websites, for everyone's enjoyment but will await your official permission to do so.

b Cliftwood:

Sorry, I forgot to respond to this. Be my guest. Post it where you like.

jimacko · by **jimacko** on 06 Nov 2008, 18:18

I'm just curious whether anyone has an opinion about whether Hillary would have beaten McCain had she been the nominee...I have friends in several red states who have opined that Hillary would not have been able to turn any red state toward the blue, unlike Obama. When I asked why I was told that detestation of Hillary is so widespread across the country, other than in the Democratic Party's deep blue core, that she never could have inspired males to vote for her. I'm no big fan of hers, but even among my fellow denizens of the bluest of blue states (MA) Hillary's appeal seems far more limited than Obama's does. This was so even as she beat him in the Primary up here. He was the big news, she was the default candidate. Do I misunderstand the depth of her support in other parts of the nation?

A.C. Douglas · by **A.C. Douglas** on 06 Nov 2008, 18:26

jimacko wrote:I'm just curious whether anyone has an opinion about whether Hillary would have beaten McCain had she been the nominee....

I do -- or, rather, did as far back as February of this year. I wrote then (in this S&F post):

Time for Hillary Rodham Clinton to throw in the towel, and throw her support behind Barack Obama keeping in mind that what's of prime importance is removing from the White House, the Congress, and the Washington bureaucracy every last vestige of their present criminally incompetent, loony, right-wing ideologue occupants next November. As it now seems clear that John McCain will be the Republican presidential nominee, the Demo’s must nominate the candidate who has the best chance of defeating him, and Senator Obama is clearly that candidate, not Senator Clinton who would stand little chance against Senator McCain even with the pernicious baggage of the Bush Administration’s ideology-driven eight years weighing him down.

ACD

pczipott · by **pczipott** on 06 Nov 2008, 18:50

Fascinating map on Krugman's blog page at the NYT: [urlnw]http://krugman.blogs.nytimes.com/2008/11/05/zell-miller-was-right-sort-of/[/urlnw].

The map shows the change in vote percentage, by county, from the 2004 election to 2008. How striking that nearly the whole country blueshifted except for a very distinct island, reaching from the Appalachians of West Virginia to Oklahoma, with a peninsula dangling via east Texas into Louisiana, that redshifted. (We ignore the native-son/daughter effects in AZ/AK.) The contiguity of that red-shift block stands out and seems like fertile ground for sociological, economic, or political research.

ScottMorrison · by **ScottMorrison** on 06 Nov 2008, 19:55

pczipott wrote:Fascinating map on Krugman's blog page at the NYT: [urlnw]http://krugman.blogs.nytimes.com/2008/11/05/zell-miller-was-right-sort-of/[/urlnw].

The map shows the change in vote percentage, by county, from the 2004 election to 2008. How striking that nearly the whole country blueshifted except for a very distinct island, reaching from the Appalachians of West Virginia to Oklahoma, with a peninsula dangling via east Texas into Louisiana, that redshifted. (We ignore the native-son/daughter effects in AZ/AK.) The contiguity of that red-shift block stands out and seems like fertile ground for sociological, economic, or political research.

As a native of that area (and the only member of my family to have left the area; the rest are in Oklahoma, east Texas, Louisiana and West Virginia) perhaps I can say this without it necessarily seeming to be Eastern elitist sniffing: the area involved is the predominantly white hillbilly belt. That is to say, this is the area of the South that has the fewest blacks and the South's usual quota of know-nothing bigots. (I'm the only member of my family, that I'm aware of, who voted for Obama.)

mogliettina · by **mogliettina** on 06 Nov 2008, 20:08

Jimbo:
My opinion is that regardless of Hillary's unpopularity with the red states, the women of this country are not exactly do-do birds and would likely (I'd like to think anyway) have disdained the prom queen Joe-lover (plumber, six-pak, Biden) for a more substantial woman who is smart, knowledgeable and is politically not a cipher. But we'll never know now will we. And happy am I that we won't.
I actually believe that we are seeing a fine, classic and charismatic Kennedyesque man for a change running our country who may just make history in a more positive way than our out-going specimen.
I liked him way back when people laughed at me, including my own mate, when they all said he wasn't going to run and to forget it.
You should see the money pouring in from the bets I made and won! (Enough to buy myself a champagne cocktail at the Met bar at intermission!) :shock:

calvert · by **calvert** on 06 Nov 2008, 23:54

My two cents: I don't think any Republican presidential candidate would have stood much of a chance against either Clinton or Obama in the current electoral climate, particularly in light of the economic collapse in the last weeks of the election. This was the Republican counterpart to the Democrats' pasting in the 1980 election (similar terrible economic environment) when Reagan plastered the hapless, incompetent Jimmy Carter. Whether this turns out to be the major electoral re-alignment that La Media Elite are having orgasms about remains to be seen. There certainly are demographic shifts underway, particularly with the increase in Hispanic voters. We are seeing that here in Texas.

The Obama wave had some interesting effects locally (i.e., here in Houston). Harris County has been solidly Republican for the past 25 years, at least in terms of its Presidential voting patterns, judges, and other local elected officials. (Oddly enough, the Mayor has always been a Democrat, even while the majority of other elected seats went Republican, but usually a relatively conservative Democrat.) In this cycle, a staggering 16 out of 19 District Court seats switched from Republican to Democrat as the Republican judges were quite literally swept out of office. This apparently happened to the Democrats in 1980 when Reagan created a similar tsunami.

One of the bright spots in the past few weeks was the conviction of the loathesome Ted Stevens, the corrupt King of Pork from Alaska. To me he represented everything that was wrong with the Republicans in Congress, and I sincerely hope he spends the rest of his life in jail. They are still counting the ballots in Alaska and he maintains a slim lead, but if even he wins he will undoubtably be expelled from the Senate (hopefully they still have enough self-respect as an institution to do that) and there will be a new election in Alaska. Just think, folks: if she runs (which I doubt), you would have a Senator Palin within the next few months.

pczipott · by **pczipott** on 07 Nov 2008, 01:12

Scott: thanks for your informed perspective on that red-shifted island. I wonder if its population as a whole is as relatively immobile as you suggest; it would be interesting to overlay mobility statistics on the map and see if they correlate.

Jamie: I agree, these talks of electoral sea changes are overblown. That was supposed to have happened to the Republicans after 1964, and four years later Nixon was elected; then it was supposed to have happened to the Democrats in 1980 ... and though it took 12 years for them to recover, a dozen years is not that long, on the time scale of nations.

lulu · by **lulu** on 07 Nov 2008, 08:29

Why doesn't Joe Lieberman just go over to the GOP already. The man is mean-spirited as can be and has been a Republican in hiding; time for him to just quit the Democratic Party. I wish the donkeys would boot him out. I would think neither party could trust him. The sight of the man makes me ill.

:evil:

ScottMorrison · by **ScottMorrison** on 07 Nov 2008, 10:21

calvert wrote:One of the bright spots in the past few weeks was the conviction of the loathesome Ted Stevens, the corrupt King of Pork from Alaska. To me he represented everything that was wrong with the Republicans in Congress, and I sincerely hope he spends the rest of his life in jail. They are still counting the ballots in Alaska and he maintains a slim lead, but if even he wins he will undoubtably be expelled from the Senate (hopefully they still have enough self-respect as an institution to do that) and there will be a new election in Alaska. Just think, folks: if she runs (which I doubt), you would have a Senator Palin within the next few months.

My scenario: Stevens will win, will be kicked out by the Senate, Governor Palin will have the option to appoint someone to fill his new term, or will instead step down and her replacement as governor will appoint her to the Stevens Pork Position. Alternately, she doesn't step down but appoints her husband to fill Stevens' seat. And then we have a new Alaskan dynasty. Down the road we'll have Senators and/or Governors Track, Trig, Bristol, Willow, and Piper Palin.

karlhenning · by **karlhenning** on 07 Nov 2008, 10:33

Too good not to share:

Republican Party, Average Working Joe Bid One Another Adieu Until 2012

Cheers,
~Karl

calvert · by **calvert** on 07 Nov 2008, 10:44

lulu wrote:Why doesn't Joe Lieberman just go over to the GOP already. The man is mean-spirited as can be and has been a Republican in hiding; time for him to just quit the Democratic Party. I wish the donkeys would boot him out. I would think neither party could trust him. The sight of the man makes me ill.

Oh really now, Sheila. I can understand Democrats being angered at Lieberman's support of McCain ("O tradimento! sleale!"). But "mean-spirited?" Joe Lieberman is the nicest, most gracious politician in Congress (more so, frankly, than any Republican I can think of). He is a genuinely good, gentle, and gracious man, a true gentleman,and a man of integrity and principle, and long before he announced his support for McCain he was one of the public figures I admired most, even though I disagreed with him on almost every political issue, apart from the Iraq war. I couldn't even work up dislike for him when he was Algore's running mate in 2000! And as for being a "Republican in hiding," that is a spectacularly silly statement: apart from his support for the Iraq war, he has always been a reliable liberal Democrat on every other issue of consequence.

If Lieberman is stripped of his Committee assignments by Democrats as punishment for his apostasy, in all probability he will continue to caucus with them and vote with them on most non-war related issues. That in itself will be a testament to his character as a man of principle and a rebuke to your intemperate remarks. And the Democrats may very well need him to break Republican filibusters in the next two years. So don't be a fool, and recognize which side of the bread your butter's on.

Don't be so quick to drive men like Lieberman out of Washington. He is truly a vanishing breed: the "gentleman politician" and a genuine man of principle. (Much like former Senator McGovern, for whom I have the same deep respect even though I regard him as two hairs short of being a full-fledged socialist.)

calvert · by **calvert** on 07 Nov 2008, 10:49

Scott:

I think there would have to be a new election to replace Stevens, not simply an appointment. There would be too much of his term left to run.

kashania · by **kashania** on 07 Nov 2008, 10:53

Jim: I think that Hillary would have still beaten McCain handily. While I doubt she would have turned Viriginia blue, she still would have won Florida, Pennsylvania, Ohio and Indiana. It would have been a comfortable win. There are many who hate Hillary and foam at the mouth at the thought of her candidacy. But the fact is that those people are confirmed Republicans and can still only cast one vote, no matter how fierce their hatred.

calvert · by **calvert** on 07 Nov 2008, 10:59

Apparently The Messiah did not bring about quite the expansion of voter turnout that was anticipated:

http://politicalticker.blogs.cnn.com/20 ... r-than-04/

2008 turnout was basically the same as 2004. Democrat turnout was a couple of points higher than Republican, as was to be expected. But very little increase in total turnout. Oh, well - plenty of opportunities for other miracles in the years ahead.

brunnhilde · by **brunnhilde** on 07 Nov 2008, 11:28

It would indeed take a "water-into-wine" kinda guy to fix what ails, ie, Iraq, Afghanistan and the economy. No mere human can bring quick change to these issues, and no matter what he does, some segment of the population is going to be angry and disappointed. Big time.

Poor guy! No one can live up to the kind of hype surrounding him and survive. I wish him well. It will be interesting to see what transpires.

But oh, yes, it is such a pleasure to hear him caress the English language, instead of battering it.

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