Current Discussion (Off-Topic Chatter)

Re: Current Discussion (Off-Topic Chatter)

Postby A.C. Douglas on 12 Nov 2008, 17:34

calvert wrote:ACD wrote (on S&F):

This sort of imbecility could prevail only in sharia-governed Muslim countries and in America the only difference being that in the former you get your tongue cut out; in the latter, merely a slap on the wrist.

That's rather an important distinction, don't you think? Even drawing the comparison is ludicrous.

No, only a comparison between the consequences of such an offense would be ludicrous; a comparison which was NOT the point of the S&F squib. My noting the difference in consequences in this particular case was merely to note the difference in consequences, not a comparison of the two. The point being made was of a different kind entirely; viz., the loony (and pernicious) absurdities that obtain whenever the influence of fundamentalist religion makes itself felt in secular domains in which it has no business. In Muslim countries, it's sharia. In America, the thinking and influence of the fundamentalist Christian right.

ACD
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Re: Current Discussion (Off-Topic Chatter)

Postby calvert on 12 Nov 2008, 20:07

I don't think it has anything to do with "fundamentalism." The fact is, most Americans just don't want to listen to trash talk in public or on the airwaves. You would get the same reaction if there was someone in a restaurant loudly using profanity. Most of the patrons (who, after all, could not all be "fundamentalists") would tell him or her to shut up or quiet down.

If you feel compelled to attach a perjorative religious label to the phenomenon, I think that "Puritanism" (the other standby bugaboo of the Irriligious Left) would probably describe it better. Myself, I just think of it as class.
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Re: Current Discussion (Off-Topic Chatter)

Postby mogliettina on 12 Nov 2008, 20:14

What is the difference between fundamentalists and evangelists?
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Re: Current Discussion (Off-Topic Chatter)

Postby A.C. Douglas on 12 Nov 2008, 20:38

mogliettina wrote:What is the difference between fundamentalists and evangelists?

Evangelists are fundamentalists terminally afflicted with logorrhea.

ACD
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Re: Current Discussion (Off-Topic Chatter)

Postby A.C. Douglas on 12 Nov 2008, 21:08

calvert wrote:If you feel compelled to attach a perjorative religious label to the phenomenon, I think that "Puritanism" (the other standby bugaboo of the Irriligious Left) would probably describe it better. Myself, I just think of it as class.

Ah yes. The Puritans. America's first fundamentalist Christian sect, and the fons et origo of American Christian fundamentalism.

I had a few words to say about Puritanism in America in an article I wrote that appeared in print some nine or so years ago. It went:

There's an old but fairly amusing joke. It goes: When it came to British colonization, Australia got the hands-down better of America. Australia got all the convicts. America got the Puritans.

On second thought, not so amusing.

But there's no gainsaying it. Even in this do-your-own-thing-anything-goes era the Puritan impulse is still alive and well in us Americans whether we acknowledge it or not. And that impulse is forever fighting to assert the Pure and the Good.

And what must it fight? Why, the demons, of course. The Puritan impulse must have its demons or it perishes, and that impulse is not at all ready or willing to go gentle into that good night. And if demons aren't readily apparent, well, then, they must be sought out. And if they still remain elusive and can't be found, why, then, they must be invented. The Puritan impulse simply cannot and will not be denied its demons.

ACD
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Re: Current Discussion (Off-Topic Chatter)

Postby mogliettina on 12 Nov 2008, 21:37

ACD wrote:
mogliettina wrote:What is the difference between fundamentalists and evangelists?

Evangelists are fundamentalists terminally afflicted with logorrhea.

ACD


That's way too simplistic an explanation for me. I shall attempt to google it.
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Re: Current Discussion (Off-Topic Chatter)

Postby karlhenning on 12 Nov 2008, 22:09

"Fundamentalism" of any religious variety views with distrust anything perceived as 'elaboration' upon "the simple, essential faith." With distrust, as in many cases it is perceived by The Simplifiers as a vitiating Compromise.

One (only one) amusing irony in the realm of Christianity is, that the Nicene Creed (for instance) is dismissed as an 'elaboration'; where the Creeds were in fact formulated as distillations of the essentials of the Christian faith easier to digest than the textual tangle that is the Bible.

"Evangel" is transliterated Greek for Gospel (the "Good News"). Evangelism, generally, is the command to share the Gospel in all lands.

But perhaps you have already gleaned some of this via google, Mogs.

Cheers,
~Karl
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Re: Current Discussion (Off-Topic Chatter)

Postby A.C. Douglas on 12 Nov 2008, 22:16

mogliettina wrote:
ACD wrote:
mogliettina wrote:What is the difference between fundamentalists and evangelists?

Evangelists are fundamentalists terminally afflicted with logorrhea.

ACD

That's way too simplistic an explanation for me. I shall attempt to google it.

It wasn't intended simplistically exegetical, but comically exegetic.

ACD
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Re: Current Discussion (Off-Topic Chatter)

Postby calvert on 13 Nov 2008, 00:52

The term "fundamentalist" had its origin in the early 20th century, when the more liberal, European approach to Biblical interpretation ("Neo-Orthodoxy") was coming into conflict with more conservative, traditional approaches. A group of religious leaders drew up a list of the "fundamentals" of Christianity, basic doctrinal tenets that they felt could not be compromised without undermining the Gospel. These included original sin, the atonement, the virgin birth, the verbal, plenary inspiration of Scripture, and a number of other doctrines. (A literal seven-day creation was not part of this list, but this group certainly would have subscribed to that view of Genesis I & II.) This group called themselves "fundamentalists" - as in, people committed to the fundamentals of Christianity.

The term is generally used today, principally as a perjorative term, to describe (at least in regard to Christianity) any Christian group or sect that, in secular parlance, "takes the Bible literally." This in itself is a distortion of the Fundamentalist approach to the Bible, which is essentially to read the text literally where context, literary form and linguistics would so indicate, and to take it otherwise where those same factors would suggest another approach. For example, you will not find any "Fundamentalist" who, when the Psalmist writes that the hills "clap their hands," would interpret that as literally meaning that the hills have sprouted hands and are giving God a round of applause. That is because the Psalms are poetry, with their own interpretive constraints. Similarly, the Parables are not interpreted literally because, in Hebrew tradition, they never were. On the other hand, when the Bible records that, "Jesus wept," that is taken literally, because the context so indicates. (It should also be noted that a great many "Fundamentalists" do not subcribe to the idea of a literal, 7-day creation.)

The term "Evangelical" also has its origins in early 20th century America. Generally, it denotes Christians with a strong emphasis on missionary outreach and evangelism and usually, but not invariably, a conservative approach to Biblical interpretation. In modern usage, the terms "Fundamentalist" and "Evangelical" have come to be used synonymously, at least among secularists. This is not accurate. While it is fair to say that all "Fundamentalists" are "Evangelicals," the reverse is most definitely not true. Within the Evangelical community one finds a fairly wide variety of views on various doctrinal matters. Also, most Evangelicals tend to be non-denominational, however, one finds plenty of Evangelicals (as defined above) within all the major denominations, including Catholicism.

It should be noted that virtually all of the major institutions of learning in this country were founded by men who would be described today as "fundamentalists," as were many if not most of the leading jurists, politicians, statesmen, educators, and intellectual leaders in the U.S. up through the early decades of the 20th century. "Fundamentalists" were also behind every major charitable and social outreach effort in this country (and in England) in the 19th and early 20th centuries. The abolition movement, in England and in the U.S., was driven almost entirely by "fundamentalists" (who, as contemporary secular parlance would have it, were seeking to "impose their religious views" about slavery on the rest of the country). It is an unarguably true statement that, were it not for very activist "fundamentalists," slavery would have been around a lot longer than it was, both in this country and in England. So, what is today described as "fundamentalism" (but which is more accurately described as traditional, orthodox Christanity) has a fairly impressive pedigree.
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Re: Current Discussion (Off-Topic Chatter)

Postby samm on 13 Nov 2008, 08:07

I'm glad your bad news is not so terrible, Peter! Enjoy a carefree voyage and a world of choices when you are ready to take on new work.

(I was layed off in April this year and made it my retirement. I was very lucky.)
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Re: Current Discussion (Off-Topic Chatter)

Postby mogliettina on 13 Nov 2008, 08:30

After Googling, my feeble brain has determined that, simplistically speaking, the Evangelists are the left-wing liberals while the Fundamentalists are the right wing conservatives. To keep this in an opera vein, regietheater vs. traditional. :P
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Re: Current Discussion (Off-Topic Chatter)

Postby calvert on 13 Nov 2008, 09:54

mogliettina wrote:After Googling, my feeble brain has determined that, simplistically speaking, the Evangelists are the left-wing liberals while the Fundamentalists are the right wing conservatives. To keep this in an opera vein, regietheater vs. traditional. :P


<g> Cute, but inaccurate.
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Re: Current Discussion (Off-Topic Chatter)

Postby mogliettina on 13 Nov 2008, 10:17

calvert wrote:
mogliettina wrote:After Googling, my feeble brain has determined that, simplistically speaking, the Evangelists are the left-wing liberals while the Fundamentalists are the right wing conservatives. To keep this in an opera vein, regietheater vs. traditional. :P


<g> Cute, but inaccurate.


Though you are probably actually one or the other yourself and would know more about it, here is my source.

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline ... ls/vs.html
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Re: Current Discussion (Off-Topic Chatter)

Postby calvert on 13 Nov 2008, 10:55

Mogs:

Thanks for the link, the comments on which are, for the most part, an excellent description of the differences between "fundamentalism" and "evangelicalism." (You will note that they are right on point with what I wrote in my previous post on this same subject.)

From what I have observed, one of the distinguishing characteristics between "fundamentalists" and "evangelicals" is that the fundamentalist subset of Evangelicalism tends to have more of a "bunker mentality" towards life and tend to be more "Us vs. Them" and, as that webpage indicated, more separatist. But again, contrary to the caricature of Evangelical Christianity that one gets from the mainstream media, it is by no means true of all fundamentalists and certainly not of all evangelicals. As is so often the case, the extremes tend to get most of the focus and (inaccurately) come to be regarded as representative of the whole group.

I would add that the "Us vs. Them" bunker mentality I referred to above, I have observed to be every bit as strong among some secular leftists as it is among some fundamentalist Christians. It is more a function of strong conviction combined with a certain personality type than it is the product of a specific religious outlook on life.
Last edited by calvert on 13 Nov 2008, 11:06, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Current Discussion (Off-Topic Chatter)

Postby cliftwood on 13 Nov 2008, 10:57

ACD wrote:
calvert wrote:If you feel compelled to attach a perjorative religious label to the phenomenon, I think that "Puritanism" (the other standby bugaboo of the Irriligious Left) would probably describe it better. Myself, I just think of it as class.

Ah yes. The Puritans. America's first fundamentalist Christian sect, and the fons et origo of American Christian fundamentalism.

I had a few words to say about Puritanism in America in an article I wrote that appeared in print some nine or so years ago. It went:

There's an old but fairly amusing joke. It goes: When it came to British colonization, Australia got the hands-down better of America. Australia got all the convicts. America got the Puritans.

On second thought, not so amusing.

But there's no gainsaying it. Even in this do-your-own-thing-anything-goes era the Puritan impulse is still alive and well in us Americans whether we acknowledge it or not. And that impulse is forever fighting to assert the Pure and the Good.

And what must it fight? Why, the demons, of course. The Puritan impulse must have its demons or it perishes, and that impulse is not at all ready or willing to go gentle into that good night. And if demons aren't readily apparent, well, then, they must be sought out. And if they still remain elusive and can't be found, why, then, they must be invented. The Puritan impulse simply cannot and will not be denied its demons.

ACD


ACD..

Very interesting analysis and right on the money. :)
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Re: Current Discussion (Off-Topic Chatter)

Postby calvert on 13 Nov 2008, 11:13

The necessity for "demons" is by no means exclusively a "Puritan" or religious phenomenon, but rather a fundamental trait of human nature. Securalists and athiests have their own "demons," which are a vital and necessary part of their own world-view and frequently every bit as "irrational" as they claim the other kind of demons to be. And one of the most reliable and consistent "demons" of the secularist is the ever-looming (and imaginary) threat of Religious Totalitarianism by Fundamentalists. The recent irrational hysteria among Liberals over Sarah Palin's (presumed) religious views is an example of this.

Really, some people's lack of self-perception is quite extraordinary. But again, that is also a fundamental trait of human nature.
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Re: Current Discussion (Off-Topic Chatter)

Postby calvert on 13 Nov 2008, 11:24

BTW, Puritanism is a fascinating and complex subject about which most people have little or no real knowledge, tending as they do to deal in caricatures and cartoons rather than the actual complexities of life.

The authoritarian impulse in human nature does not need religion to find an outlet. Just look at our own contemporary secular version of "Puritanism," which mainfests itself in draconian anti-smoking laws, preaching of self-abnegation and self-denial to reduce one's "carbon footprint," health nuts trying to mandate fat contents in fast food, and the whole host of nanny-state modern Miss Grundy's urging us (and trying to coerce us) to mend our wicked ways. Not to mention campus Speech Codes. It's the same-old same-old, only Global Warming has replaced Fornication as the font of Original Sin.
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Re: Current Discussion (Off-Topic Chatter)

Postby cliftwood on 13 Nov 2008, 11:31

Calvert..

The "liberal" opposition to Palin was far more than her religious convictions. The case against her held by my liberal friends and many of my Republican friends as well is her lack of substantive qualifications to be the leader of a nation of 300 million people.

To put it as kindly as I can, she clearly was a very troubling choice for McCain's chances to win the Presidency and the results and the polls confirm that. In spite of her radiant smile and down-home attractiveness, she would have been a dreadful and scary successor to McCain, should he be unable to continue as President.

Can you really make up any kind of creditable case for President Sarah Palin that you'd feel confident about?
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Re: Current Discussion (Off-Topic Chatter)

Postby A.C. Douglas on 13 Nov 2008, 11:55

cliftwood wrote:ACD: Very interesting analysis and right on the money. :)

Thank you, Cliftwood, but that short extract of mine on Puritanism was just part of the supporting background for the larger article which dealt with America's propensity for what I termed "off-with-his-head solutions" my analysis of which I suspect you would not find yourself to be quite so complimentary about.

A reprint of the full article can be read here.

ACD
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Re: Current Discussion (Off-Topic Chatter)

Postby fradale1 on 13 Nov 2008, 12:05

In spite of her radiant smile and down-home attractiveness, she would have been a dreadful and scary successor to McCain, should he be unable to continue as President.


It is interesting that much of the same kind of sentiment was held concerning Harry Truman, and yet he is now widely considered one of our best presidents.

Note: policy issue details can be learned in a rather short time. however, one cannot learn charisma, or develop leadership/character qualities in the same manner.
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